Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Cheung1303

In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute, not different disputes. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: {05:24, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)}), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 01:27, 9 November 2024 (UTC).

(User:Cheung1303 | talk | contributions)

Statement of the dispute

This is a summary written by users who dispute this user's conduct. Users signing other sections should not edit here.

Description

Cheung1303 has since creating this account uploaded dozens of images that do not comply with Wikipedia's image use policy. Many of the images are taken from sites such as Gakei.com, which has a clear statement on its site that "ALL photo images were taken by GAKEI, who retains the copyright privilege over them. You are NOT welcome to show any of them to the public in any form or by any means without his permission IN ADVANCE." In spite of multiple warnings, Cheung1303 continues to upload images that are obvious copyright violations, and in any case fails to provide source information as required. In addition, now that he has been informed of the need to put tags on image description pages indicating their copyright status, Cheung1303 adds inaccurate tags (often a misleading jumble like {{copyrighted}}{{fair use}}{{GFDL}}{{PD}}) and removes tags properly added by others (including copyvio tags). In general, Cheung1303 does everything possible to undermine attempts to flag problematic images via normal Wikipedia processes and remove them from articles.

It should be mentioned that Cheung1303 appears to be based in China (specifically Hong Kong) and that his understanding of English may be mediocre. Attempts to explain the problem and the proper procedures for uploading images have primarily met with attempts at subterfuge rather than compliance. Cheung1303 also contributes anonymously at times, including when removing image tags placed by others.

Update: User:Ran has posted a new message on Cheung1303's talk page, in both English and Chinese, trying once more to explain how to follow copyright policies with respect to images. The language assistance is much appreciated. It remains to be seen whether this will produce improvement.

Presumably he can read Mandarin? Very Verily 06:56, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Written Chinese is common for all varieties of Chinese. A literate Cantonese person would certainly be able to read the Mandarin-based common written language, because all newspapers, textbooks, formal documents etc. are written that way. The only possible barrier is the simplified/traditional orthography difference, which I've already pre-empted by putting my message in traditional. (So did Felix Wan, in fact, whom, I believe, is a Cantonese speaker as well.) -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 07:11, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

Right, which is why he probably can. But it's vaguely possible he was not educated in China or in Chinese. (In that case, writing in Cantonese dialect won't help much either.) Then again, he almost certainly understands English well enough. Very Verily 07:48, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It would appear not. He has added several images since the warning with dubious copyright info. I have warned him on his user page that i will block him for 1 week if he uploads another image that violates our policy. I do not belive this user is malicious. But he does not listen to what people are saying to him. Theresa Knott (Not the skater) 11:00, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Update: same behavior continues as of 2004-11-9, as he continues to add copyrighted images and remove {{unverified}} tags previously added to his images. He still hasn't bothered to respond either here or in his Talk page. Whether or not he is "malicious", this behavior is destructive and anti-social and needs to stop...please impose at least a temporary ban ASAP. —Steven G. Johnson 06:28, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

What would be useful is authorization to immediately delete the pictures as they are uploaded. Perhaps if the pictures start being deleted he will finally understand that his behaviour is unacceptable. Leaving images with misleading tags lying around for any lenghh of time is also dangerous for other languages and outside users. - SimonP 07:38, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

I've just blocked him editing for a week. Hopefully he will use the time to read our image use policy and understand it. I know this means he can't answer here, but he hasn't written anything here so far, and he has a history of not answering requests on his talk page. I agree we need authority to speedy delete his copyviolations though. That would be the best solution IMO. Do you think resurecting quickpolls for the purpose of getting that authority is a good idea? Theresa Knott (Not the skater) 11:57, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Since September 23 there has been a call to delete "All images uploaded by User:Cheung1303" on Wikipedia:Possibly unfree images. That is well over the 30 day lag period that page requires. - SimonP 00:30, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

Update: since Cheung1303 (talk) cannot post any message on Wikipedia for one week, I, Felix Wan (talk), have tried to contact him/her through email, his/her talk page, and my talk page, hoping that he/she may talk to me through email. I don't want to lose this contributer. -- Felix Wan 00:39, 2004 Nov 10 (UTC)

Being curious of why Cheung1303 seemed unable to "get it", I browsed through some Hong Kong related topics on Wikipedia for a while, and found that nearly all of the images improperly tagged!! I guess Cheung1303 may have tried hard to follow examples, but he may have found only bad examples in his/her field of interest. Now, Cheung1303 may be quite confused. By the way, will it be a good idea to launch some user education program on the copyright policy and put a link to it from the main page? -- Felix Wan 01:34, 2004 Nov 10 (UTC)

I don't buy that. Your explanation might make sense if he had been left to flounder about on his own. But plenty of people have spoken to him. He hardly ever answers. If he was merely a confused newbie, he would behave like one - asking lots of questions, saying "I don't understand" pointing out what he has trouble understanding ( "the policy says this, but these images are tagged differently. Why?") going slowly and seeking reassurance (I uploaded this image and tagged it PD is that OK?) and so on. But he doesn't do any of that normal stuff. It's not our fault he's doing this. Having improved documentation on the copyright policy can onlt be a good thing of course. But i don't believe it would make one jot of difference here. I don't believe he has, or has any intention of, reading the policy. Theresa Knott (Not the skater) 21:44, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Update: Although Cheung1303 has been subjected to a 1-week ban, he continues (as of Nov. 9) to add improper tags to his images via one of his anonymous IP accounts: 202.75.80.8 (contributions). At this point his behavior has crossed over the line from misguided to malicious. One course of action that will help will be to delete all of his uploaded images, with the exception of corporate logos which are fair use according to {{logo}}. —Steven G. Johnson 06:46, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

Definitely. -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 12:52, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

I would rather hold the judgment on malicious intention for a moment, but since Cheung1303 knows how to get around the ban, I agree that the sysops should delete all related copyvio images immediately, as the complaint has gone through due process. That could be the only way to get his/her attention. A temporary ban on the anonymous IPs may also work. -- Felix Wan 16:20, 2004 Nov 10 (UTC)

Deleting would be good. If bilingual explanations can't get his/her attention then we have to try something else. -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 19:47, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

He isn't actually getting around the ban. I decided only to block his user account, not the IP's he's known to have edited from for the simple reason that anons cannot upload images. I'm also not sure he's malicious, I think he's just a bit stupid.I agree that deleting is probably the best way to go. I've been holding off on it though because deleting is the only admin action that cannot be undone by another admin. That's why we normally have the 30 days, to give us time to be sure. However this is a special case. I am 99% sure that all his images are copyvios except for the few genuinly fair use ones (Such as logos). I am confident that I can judge which images need to be deleted. I intend to start deleted all his images at the weekend, (The delay is in case anyone wants to tell me not to do it in the meantime). Theresa Knott (Not the skater) 21:16, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've been waiting out events the same way, but I agree that it's time for systematic deletions on the terms being discussed. Go ahead as far as I'm concerned. --Michael Snow 23:46, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Update: Cheung1303 continues (as of Nov. 12) to add improper tags to his images via two more of his anonymous IP accounts: 202.75.80.3 (contributions) and 202.40.210.174 (contributions). —Steven G. Johnson 18:08, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

Can someone temporarily block those anonymous IPs so that we can get Cheung1303's attention? Some guys simply won't ask for direction if they think they are in the right track. -- Felix Wan 18:55, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)

It didn't get his attention when i blocked his user account. I'll try temp blocks on the anon IP's but watch out for him switching to different IP's. Theresa Knott (Tart, knees hot) 19:19, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

OK I've blocked them all for 48 hours. Let me know if you spot him coming from a different IP. Theresa Knott (Tart, knees hot) 19:30, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. I guess I still have patience with that user only because I joined late. ^_^ Remember to delete the copyvio images during the weekend also. Cheers! -- Felix Wan 20:17, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)

I've done it. It took me two hours! I left in the logos and a couple of image i feel probably qualify as fair use, but I deleted everything else. From now on we should delete copyvios straight away. Hopefully that way he will learn that uploading them is a waste of time. Theresa Knott (Tart, knees hot) 09:04, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Update: As of Nov. 22, he continues to upload images that are probable copyright violations (Image:Twins.bmp, Image:CZ6686.jpg, Image:JP6375.jpg ...note that the last two are from Gakei.com, which he has been repeatedly warned not to use images from). This guy has never responded to these complaints, and shows no indication of comprehension; please delete all his uploaded images on sight (except for logos). I would say a permanent ban is in order, except that then he will just upload anonymously or create another account, I'm sure. —Steven G. Johnson 07:24, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)

(NOTE: JEFFERRY SITATION HAS BEEN RESOLVED. SEE BELOW.) Note that it seems he created (User:Jefferry | talk | contributions) to further his uploading. Under this alias, he has uploaded what are clearly many of the same Cheung1303 images that were deleted, except that now he claims that the images are "public domain" and by "Jefferry" (see e.g. Image:KMB_APM1_int.JPG, which I immediately recognized as one of the old Gakei images). (Note the transparent attempts at deception on the talk page.) This is clearly malicious to my mind (or at least pathologically anti-social). —Steven G. Johnson 07:36, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)

I agree. Do you think we can block him permenantly as a vandal/disruptive editor. Or do you think this needs to go through the AC? Theresa Knott (Tart, knees hot) 09:20, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps he's not malicious nor antisocial, just a bit young. He's probably sitting at home right now, thinking, "harhar! I got you all fooled!" :) In any case we don't have any clear evidence that Jefferry is in fact Cheung1303, even though its almost obvious. So blocking him outright might seem somewhat "unjustifiable". I'd say arbitration is best. -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 16:28, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)

For now I have marked all of Jefferry's images as unverified. Could someone compare IP addresses to see if Jefferry can be proven to be a front for Cheung. - SimonP 17:09, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)

In the meantime I've tried an alternate — tactic — in trying to communicate with Jefferry, whoever the hell he is. -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 19:56, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)

Me too. It's possible that Jefferry is a different person. We should bear in mind that we might be putting two and two together and getting five. Note that the images Jefferry claims as his all have exactly the same height and width. This is certainly consistant with him having taken them all himself with the same camera. I think we should hold off on the AC request for now and see what happens.(Note that only a developer can compare IPs. There aren't many developers and they are ally busy developing the mediwiki software, so i am reluctant to ask one to do it for us) Theresa Knott (Tart, knees hot) 20:54, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I haven't been able to find any of Jefferry's images on Gakei, so far. Some of them look extremely similar, so maybe I was fooled into thinking that they were identical to some of Cheung's old images. —Steven G. Johnson 21:56, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)

I compared user contributions of Cheung1303 [1] and Jefferry [2] and found it unlikely that they are the same person. Jefferry joined earlier, and did not edit while Cheung1303 was banned. When Jefferry was uploading his photos during 2004.11.17 11:42-11:59 (UTC), Cheung1303 made an edit to Image:ASUS.jpg at 2004.11.17 11:50 (UTC). It appears possible to communicate with Jefferry. Let's try talking to him and at least straighten up the record for Jefferry. -- Felix Wan

Note that the situation with Jefferry seems to have been cleared up: this user's uploads are apparently original and distinct from Cheung1303's. —Steven G. Johnson 22:21, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)

For your information, Cheung1303 contacted me through email, but I still cannot communicate with him either in English or in Chinese. I understand the frustration of not knowing what he is at, but I hope that we can hold the permanent ban and observe if his behavior is improving. I think he may still not understand the seriousness of the situation and may not defend himself on this page. Please notice his apology, and let's try our best to assume good faith. -- Felix Wan 09:42, 2004 Nov 24 (UTC)

Update: Behavior continues as of Nov. 26. See Image:James Wong.jpg, Image:Danny Chan.jpg, and Image:Leslie Cheung.jpg, which were marked as {{PD}} (probably incorrectly) without indicating the source. (He is also uploading zillions of logos as {{logo}}, but never indicates the source URL.) —Steven G. Johnson 21:17, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)

Personally I'm not too bothered about the logos. The source is pretty obviously the company website, and the fair use is clear. I've deleted the other images and warned him on his talk page. I'm hoping, that with patience and consistancy he will eventually learn that it's pointless uploading copyvio images, because I'm just gonner zap 'em. I'm quite prepared to go on for quite a while, but if he doesn't learn eventually, then we'll have to go through the AC. Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 21:43, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Update: Several more copyvio images uploaded; I'm following Theresa's lead and deleting them on sight. —Steven G. Johnson 19:29, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)

Update: Several more copyvio images uploaded without listing the source and with incorrect tags as of 12/7: Image:Econicon.jpg, Image:Teleicon.jpg, Image:Autoicon.jpg. A troubling one is Image:FU2948.jpg — this one is listed as {{PD-self}}, but I'm suspicious that he didn't take the image. The linking article (Scania N113) says it was taken on Nov. 17 2004, but text inside the JPEG file says "2003:12:08 13:47:49". —Steven G. Johnson 02:25, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)

Update: Several more images uploaded and marked as {{CopyrightedFreeUse}} without source information: Image:Govicon.jpg, Image:Sporticon.jpg, Image:Wirelessicon.jpg. I'm deleting them as presumptive copyvios. —Steven G. Johnson 23:57, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)

Update: Continuing his {{CopyrightedFreeUse}} tagging of "icons": Image:Foodicon.jpg. Deleted on sight. (It's really quite sad that Wikipedia has to tolerate this kind of persistent misbehavior.) —Steven G. Johnson 15:30, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

It's not misbehaviour as such. Take a look at my talk page and you will get some insight. Cheung is clearly not of normal intelligence. I am now almost 100% sure that he isn't doing it deliberately, he simply doesn't understand. Most of his recent images have been logos (unless you've been deleting all others without me realising. These logos are tagged as fair use logos. So unless you want to start a request for arbitration, all we can do is check on him every now and then and delete anything suspicious. Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 19:27, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

(I haven't been deleting his logos. In addition to logos, he has been posting non-logo graphic illustrations, without source info, for use as "icons".) Your response begs the question: why should Wikipedia accept contributions from someone whose mental capacities (or maturity) aren't sufficient to follow simple instructions after repeated requests? (It makes everything he contributes suspect.) Sigh. —Steven G. Johnson 21:46, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

I know but he is doing it in good faith. His legit contributions don't amount to much, but they do amount to something. We tolerate a lot worse. It's a pain to have to keep going through his contributions and deleting the suspect ones, but it's nowhere near as bad as trying to argue with POV pushers, or determined vandals, or trolls and troublemakers. If you want to step this up to Arbitration then that's fine by me, but personally I'm willing to keep looking once a week or so and deleting everything suspect. 09:02, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Evidence of disputed behavior

The list of images uploaded by Cheung1303 that are clearly under copyright includes (source provided where located):
Image:Poa01.jpg [3], Image:West Rail.jpe, Image:MEF-KCR.jpg and Image:MEF-MTR.jpg from [4], Image:Kmb-ap.jpg, Image:Kmb avw2 lf5502.jpg, Image:Ap132c.jpg, Image:Kapm4.jpg, Image:N6001.jpg, Image:F6001b.jpg, Image:3asv.jpg, Image:B10tl.jpg, Image:Je1672.jpg [5], Image:Jp6375.jpg, Image:Jv9875.jpg, Image:Kx7724.jpg, Image:Kj6128.jpg, Image:Avw-rear.jpg, Image:Amn01.jpg, Image:Amn02.jpg, Image:Amn03.jpg, Image:Kr7980.jpg [6], Image:Lj7006.jpg, Image:Daf entrance.jpg, Image:19950620.jpe, Image:Ky2604.jpg [7], Image:Jl1989.jpg [8]
In general, none of Cheung1303's images properly identifies its source (with a few exceptions where the source identified was Gakei, in which case the copyright violation is clear). All of them have to be considered suspect.
List of IPs identified with Cheung1303 (probably incomplete):
1. 202.40.210.164 (contributions, talk)
2. 202.40.210.174 (contributions)
3. 202.75.80.3 (contributions, talk)
4. 202.75.80.8 (contributions)
5. 203.218.181.89 (contributions)
6. 203.218.181.125 (contributions)

Note that some of the IPs have also uploaded images, apparently because he was working from a page he had been viewing while logged in as Cheung1303 (thus making the upload link available), but was logged out in the time between the page view and the actual upload.

Applicable policies

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

(sign with ~~~~)

Michael Snow 05:54, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
SimonP 06:03, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)
—Steven G. Johnson 06:04, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC) (For example, not only did he/she not respond to Talk requests, but subsequently replaced my {{unverified}} tag for a clearly copyrighted image (Image:TX-C25FTJ.jpg) with the clearly false {{GFDL}}{{PD}}.)
Theresa Knott (Not the skater) 06:25, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Guan aco 21:47, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Other users who endorse this summary

(sign with ~~~~)

VeryVerily 05:34, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) This is really too bad, as Cheung does seem interested in contributing a lot of material. But we have to stick to the rules.
- I just don't understand what this guy's motives are. Very Verily 22:43, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
fvw * 01:41, 2004 Nov 28 (UTC)

Response

This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete.

{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries}

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

Outside view

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute.

{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries}

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

What I don't get is that it's not difficult to take the pictures concerned; the buses referred to are incredibly common in Hong Kong - stand on a sidewalk for five minutes in a busy road and you're almost certainly going to see one. --JuntungWu 15:59, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

All signed comments and talk not related to a vote or endorsement, should be directed to this page's discussion page.